Darren Schwartz
Subject: Gene Hackman: The French Connection, Unforgiven, Hoosiers and Crimson Tide
Bio: What Happens Next Culture Critic
Transcript:
Larry Bernstein:
Welcome to What Happens Next. My name is Larry Bernstein. What Happens Next is a podcast which covers economics, politics, and culture.
Today’s topic is Gene Hackman: French Connection, Unforgiven, Hoosiers and Crimson Tide. Gene Hackman and his wife were found dead recently in their Santa Fe home. Today I am joined by The What Happens Next Culture Critic Darren Schwartz to evaluate Hackman’s performances in some of his most popular movies.
Larry Bernstein:
Darren and I thought about which movies we would want to review. Do you want to go through our thought process on the choice of films?
Darren Schwartz:
We were both immediately drawn to Crimson Tide.
Larry Bernstein:
Which by the way is not an obvious choice?
Darren Schwartz:
It was obvious for me.
Larry Bernstein:
Gene Hackman had to be a critical role in the movie.
Darren Schwartz:
Prominent.
Larry Bernstein:
It had to be a good movie.
We wanted to make sure that it was not obscure, because we wanted the viewers of the podcast to recognize the film and have seen it. We picked French Connection because this was his major breakout film where he won best actor. We chose Unforgiven because this film won Best Picture and he played a central role.
We chose Crimson Tide because we loved it and we picked Hoosiers because it is a classic. So those are our four films.
Darren Schwartz:
But we did struggle with French Connection, was it too old? Was it dated? Had enough people seen it. You were very committed and obviously as a leader of the show, I follow you.
Larry Bernstein:
You're sweet.
Darren Schwartz:
Yeah.
Let's get to the French Connection made in 1971.
Darren Schwartz:
Gene Hackman is narcotics officer Jimmy Popeye Doyle in New York in the seventies, and there is a heroin shortage. He has got a tip that big suppliers are coming in from France and he and his partner Roy Scheider are hunting for the guy that they call Frog number one.
Larry Bernstein:
What did you think?
Darren Schwartz:
The question with the older movies always is, is it dated?
There is a lot of running, a lot of action. And Hackman and Scheider did a great job and it's still exciting.
Larry Bernstein:
We have seen a lot of buddy cop films, Beverly Hills Cop and Training Day with Ethan Hawke and Denzel Washington.
Darren Schwartz:
Training Day was not a buddy film because he was training. They're the furthest thing from buddies. They were just fellow officers.
Gene Hackman was a loose cannon and the best scene that represents that is the lieutenant was questioning them and said to Roy Scheider, do you also agree with Doyle on this? And he said, ‘I go with my partner’. Meaning he probably did not a hundred percent buy-in because Hackman was nuts. But I’m with him.
Larry Bernstein:
I thought the unsung hero of the French Connection was The City of New York. This is a film about 1970 New York City. And New York City was a catastrophe. Tell me about your thoughts on New York City and the French Connection.
Darren Schwartz:
I don't remember any scenes where it showed New York in a favorable manner.
There was maybe one scene where they went to that restaurant, remember the Frog and the other guy.
Larry Bernstein:
That was a lovely meal. It was a high-end French place, multi-course lunch.
Darren Schwartz:
One thing I noticed about the French restaurant scene was that the French guy, Frog one and one of his compatriots, they sat on the same side.
Larry Bernstein:
That's nice. We should do that Darren.
Darren Schwartz:
I'll do that with you. Why do you think they did that?
Larry Bernstein:
In The Godfather the father said, never have your back to the door of the entrance of the restaurant. Maybe it is a safety issue.
Darren Schwartz:
The presentation of the food, they brought the cart over with what is the steak dish?
Larry Bernstein:
Chateaubriand.
Meanwhile Gene Hackman is outside watching. It is freezing outside eating a hot dog, watching this incredible meal. What was also interesting about the dialogue was the lack of it. This was a movie about police stakeouts, the boredom, and failure of police work.
Darren Schwartz:
The opening scene with him and Roy Scheider running after the guy from the bar.
Larry Bernstein:
In modern films, the actors are in better shape. I mean, Tom Cruise would not have been losing ground versus the bad guy. Here Gene Hackman is panting. He is only 41 and yet he's running like he's Darren Schwartz. He is huffing and puffing and losing ground. But for his partner Roy, he would be in deep trouble.
This movie has one great scene and that is the chase where Gene Hackman is driving a vehicle in Queens underneath the above ground rail system. And the bad guy is in the train killing passengers.
Darren Schwartz:
He follows the guy, he gets in the train, and he puts a gun to the conductor's head and says, ‘do not stop’. And it's flying down the rails. And he chased him for must have been five miles. What is critical is for Gene Hackman to arrest this guy so they can extract information. And what does he do? He shoots him. The guy dies.
Larry Bernstein:
Sometimes you forget your objectives. I get that. 1970s had several great car chase scenes. We've Steve McQueen in ‘Bullitt’.
Darren Schwartz:
There’s ‘It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World’.
Larry Bernstein:
Great call. Some crazy car scenes.
Darren Schwartz:
It was buried under the W, remember?
Larry Bernstein:
Yeah. I loved that movie. I liked when he kicked the bucket, and then actually kicked a bucket when he died.
Do you recommend the French Connection?
Darren Schwartz:
You must be a person that likes nostalgic movies. If you want to watch a classic movie that is 50 years old and phenomenal. It's got 90% on Rotten Tomatoes.
Larry Bernstein:
I'm mixed. When I finished watching I said this is a classic for a good reason.
Darren Schwartz:
You were high in it.
Larry Bernstein:
And now it's been a couple of days since, and I'm losing my mojo on the French Connection.
Darren Schwartz:
I did a little extra credit.
Larry Bernstein:
Tell me this is what you are paid for.
Darren Schwartz:
I watched French Connection Two.
Larry Bernstein:
You didn't?
Darren Schwartz:
I did.
Larry Bernstein:
I did not see French Connection Two. And the reason was I went to Rotten Tomatoes, and it got a relatively poor customer rating.
Darren Schwartz:
French connection Two got 62% audience, 82% critic compared to 87% and 97%. It was good. He goes to France to catch the Frog. Roy Scheider's not in it. Popeye arrives on his own.
The film was set in Marseilles, and they get ahold of the Frog and his bad henchman. Guess what they do to him?
Larry Bernstein:
They shoot him up with heroin.
Darren Schwartz:
They do. Did you look that up?
Larry Bernstein:
No, because in 24 that is what they did to Keifer Sutherland.
Darren Schwartz:
Total turnaround. They're shooting him up. Someone makes you do heroin three times you are hooked. And then they dump him off at the cop station. The cops then nurse him back to health make him go cold turkey. There was such a lengthy period showing Gene Hackman going through withdrawals. It was totally a departure from this fast-paced cop shooting, running, and chasing trains. You got a guy who is in a jail cell sweating, freaking out, crying, talking about Mickey Mantle, babbling.
Larry Bernstein:
Let's move on to the second film Hoosiers. Gene Hackman plays a basketball coach for a small-town high school basketball team. It is about personal growth and team effort to achieve a miracle. Your thoughts on Hoosiers?
Darren Schwartz:
From the beginning he was “We're doing this my way.” It started first with the town folk because everybody had an opinion. Basketball was the biggest thing in Hickory that's the town. And everyone wanted to weigh-in. Hackman shows up at the first practice and it's already going on and the guy who's the pseudo coach is having the team run drills and he starts telling Hackman, “Here's what's going to happen. And Hackman says, “okay, your days are over. Give me the ball, get out of here”.
And then he gets called to the barbershop and the entire town is there. And they are asking him if we are playing man or zone? And Hackman says, “thanks guys.” He does not engage, and that sets the tone. I do not need anybody's input.
Larry Bernstein:
What did you think of the love story? Did you buy into Gene Hackman's relationship with Barbara Hershey?
Darren Schwartz:
They kissed once. It was weird and uncomfortable.
Larry Bernstein:
In the four movies that we saw, that was the sole kiss.
Darren Schwartz:
Not true. In Crimson Tide the dog licked his face.
Larry Bernstein:
Good point. Man loves dog.
What do you think about Hackman as an actor?
Darren Schwartz:
I do not think anyone would ever say he is a leading man. When you say leading man, that almost gives a romantic aspect to it. Would you agree with that?
Larry Bernstein:
Stallone is a leading man in Rambo, but he is not a romantic, but he leads that film, no question. And in Hoosiers, Gene Hackman is the star of this film. He has that strength to take a scene and run away with it.
Let's move on to Unforgiven. Unforgiven is a western that stars Clint Eastwood, Morgan Freeman and Gene Hackman.
The background is that there is a fight in a whore house where one of the girls gets knifed by one of the customers. The women are disappointed in Gene Hackman the Sheriff Little Bill who decides not to punish the individual who committed this violent attack against the women. And they offer a bounty if the individual's responsible for the violent assault are killed. Clint Eastwood joins a posse with Morgan Freeman and the sheriff Gene Hackman tries to prevent them from committing these homicides. What are your thoughts on Unforgiven a film that won Best Picture and Best director for Clint Eastwood?
Darren Schwartz:
I remember trying to have watched it. I do not think I ever made it all the way through. I finished it this time and I did not think it was Academy Award worthy.
Larry Bernstein:
I liked the movie much better than you did. What do you make of a film where everyone is bad?
Darren Schwartz:
Clint Eastwood and Gene Hackman were both bastards. The Schofield kid at the end of the movie was the only one that redeemed himself.
He said, “I don't want the money. I don't ever want to kill again. I want to go live a better life”, which was the redemption part of the story.
The text at the end of the movie was also great because it spoke about how the mother of Clint Eastwood's widow came at some point to pick up the kids. It said that she still did not understand how her daughter could marry a “man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition”.
Larry Bernstein:
He moved to San Francisco and successfully opened a dry goods store.
Darren Schwartz:
In the bar scene, when Clint Eastwood walks into the bar and how many guys were there with guns?
Larry Bernstein:
25.
Darren Schwartz:
He pulls out his gun and shoots every one of them. They are all shooting at him, some misfire some shoot their feet, and he kills every one of them.
Larry Bernstein:
My favorite scene was when Clint Eastwood shoots Gene Hackman and Gene Hackman says, I can't believe I'm going to die. I am in the middle of building a house. And for me, as someone who is about to embark on some serious house renovations, the thought that I could die in the middle of a renovation is awful. Why go through all that pain and suffering if you never get to live in the house?
Darren, have you done any renovations, and do you feel it would be absurd to die in the middle of a renovation process?
Darren Schwartz:
Either die in the planning process during the meetings and the budgeting and
Larry Bernstein:
All these decisions
Darren Schwartz:
Either do it before that end of that happens, or
Larry Bernstein:
before construction begins or die a few days after you have enjoyed the house. That's all you need. Let’s move to Crimson Tide. Do you want to give the basic plot line?
Darren Schwartz:
There is a nuclear submarine that is captained by Gene Hackman and second in command Denzel Washington. There are rebels that have broken off from the Russian Army. They’re threatening nuclear war. The USS Alabama nuclear submarine is sent to go make sure that we're in position if we have to launch a nuclear strike.
Larry Bernstein:
Denzel Washington is in his prime. They get into a dispute, and there is a mutiny. Take us through the Denzel Washington and Gene Hackman's feud.
Darren Schwartz:
Gene Hackman is old school. He is a salt and vinegar guy. Denzel is from Annapolis and went to graduate school at Harvard. He is the New Navy. Gene Hackman said “When I was coming up, they just wanted us to push the button. They did not want us to know why. With your generation, they want you to know why”. And Denzel says, “Well I would hope so.”
Larry Bernstein:
In this movie, everyone is good, and that does not mean you can't have a fight. Each can follow their own philosophical paradigms and they can be in opposition and that can result in violence.
Darren Schwartz:
The opening text of the movie said, ‘The three most powerful people in the world are, the leader of the United States, the leader of Russia, and the captain of a nuclear submarine’. One of the other lines that I loved is “We're here to protect democracy not practice it”.
It was my sixth time watching the movie and I could watch it 10 more times. The funny thing is 30 minutes into the film, there is a Russian submarine that also comes into play. I am thinking, here comes Sean Connery.
Larry Bernstein:
I conflated the Hunt for Red October with Crimson Tide as well. When you go 34 years without seeing a film, you get confused.
Darren Schwartz:
Hackman got a message that said, push the button. He got an emergency action message that said launch, and then another one came through, but it got cut off. And Hackman was like, absent a contradictory order, we go with what we have, push the button. The most exciting part was the mutiny by Denzel. Do you think that Gene Hackman was right in following his line of action?
Larry Bernstein:
I agree with Denzel Washington. It is a significant probability that the President of the United States has asked them to stand down, and it's incumbent on the leadership of the vessel to not start a thermonuclear war. Even if it risks the destruction of the United States, they must figure this thing out. That is why both characters were right. There was a protocol, this exact scenario had been considered in advance. And that scenario had said to launch the nukes. And the young philosophical Denzel also had a duty to figure out what is going on.
Darren Schwartz:
Hackman's like, we only have seconds. They could be launching their birds now if we don't knock them out.
Larry Bernstein:
What is great about this case when the risk and reward is enormous on both sides, which protocol should you follow? And you see the internal disputes by the leadership, and that is what makes it a great film.
Roger Ebert gave four stars to the French Connection, four stars to Unforgiven, four stars to Hoosiers, and three and a half Stars to Crimson Tide. Where are your ratings of these four films?
Darren Schwartz:
Crimson Tide four, Hoosiers four, Unforgiven two and a half, and French Connection three.
Larry Bernstein:
My favorite of the four was Crimson Tide. Hoosiers is my clear number two. This is one of the great sports films, but there were weaknesses as it relates to the relationship with Barbara Hershey. My third film would be Unforgiven. It is much better than you're giving credit for. It's a 3.5 star film. And French Connection is showing its age. It has got one great scene, which is the car chase with the train.
Darren Schwartz:
But if you're somebody who's looking to watch classic movies, it’s something that you should watch.
Larry Bernstein:
Gene Hackman as an actor, what do you think about his performances and his career?
Darren Schwartz:
He has had so many amazing roles like The Conversation and Superman, remember that?
Larry Bernstein:
Lux Luther. The bad guy is a challenging role to play. It's easy to be the good guy. You're the knight in shining armor. But the bad guy, it does not make any sense. They're pursuing these ridiculous objectives. Tell us about how Gene Hackman can bring to a role that allows him to play the bad guy in a way that is believable and legitimate.
Darren Schwartz:
The best bad guys in movies are ones that have some redeeming quality. Gene Hackman is a likable guy. He does not ever come across as evil, even though he plays a bad guy in some roles. That dichotomy is important, where he is appealing even though you know that he's doing bad stuff.
Larry Bernstein:
Ben Stiller wrote an article in the New York Times about his relationship with Gene Hackman. They had worked together on the Royal Tenenbaums, and in a free moment on the set, Ben Stiller went up to Gene Hackman and said that one of the reasons he got into the movie business was because of one of Gene Hackman's movies The Poseidon Adventure that he loved. And Gene Hackman said, that was a money job.
Darren Schwartz:
Meaning he took it just for money.
Larry Bernstein:
There was no artistic element to it. It was just a way to get cash.
Darren, have you ever taken a money job?
Darren Schwartz:
Not as an actor, no.
Larry Bernstein:
Did you ever take a job just for the money?
Darren Schwartz:
The closest that I came to it was the perks in this role.
Larry Bernstein:
I do not think that's right, Darren. You are the culture critic for What Happens Next. You do this for no compensation, so it's not a money job. It allows your creative juices to work, and you get personal growth and enjoyment from it. So, this is the opposite of a money job.
Darren Schwartz:
That's fair. I do like being the cultural critic of What Happens Next.
Larry Bernstein:
How will Gene Hackman be remembered? Will your children and grandchildren know Gene Hackman?
Darren Schwartz:
Maybe not. But you look at the list of great actors of the 20th century and he is certainly going to be on that list top 50.
He has been in good movies where the stories were tight. He did not pull it off because he was a good-looking Hollywood guy. He pulled it off because he is a world-class actor.
Larry Bernstein:
Thanks to Darren for joining us.
If you missed our previous podcast, the topic was Jackson vs. Trump. Our speaker was H.W. Brands who is a Professor of History at the University of Texas at Austin. Bill is a two-time Pulitzer Prize Finalist who discussed his biography Andrew Jackson: His Life and Times.
Andrew Jackson was the first populist president. He attacked the established norms for governing and that caused chaos in Washington. Recently, several of my friends have commented on the similarities between Jackson and Trump, so I decided to dig deep into the history to explore Jackson’s relevance to today’s politics.
I would like to make a plug for our next podcast with Christine Rosen who will discuss her new book The Extinction of Experience. I plan to discuss how our interaction with new technologies might be problematic both for our mental health and wellbeing.
You can find our previous episodes and transcripts on our website whathappensnextin6minutes.com. Please follow us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Thank you for joining us today, goodbye.
Check out our previous episode, Jackson vs. Trump, here.
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