Darren Schwartz
Subject: No One Mourns the Wicked
Bio: What Happens Next Movie Critic
Transcript:
Larry Bernstein:
Welcome to What Happens Next. My name is Larry Bernstein. What Happens Next is a podcast which covers economics, politics, and culture.
Today’s topic is No One Mourns the Wicked.
Our speaker is Darren Schwartz who is the What Happens Next Movie Critic. Darren and I will discuss all aspects of the blockbuster movie Wicked including, the decision to split the movie into two parts, whether the 2-hour 40-minute run time was appropriate, as well as the key casting decisions. We will also debate Wicked’s Oscar chances, compare it to other classic films, and generally cause mayhem. Let’s get started.
How many times have you seen the film?
Darren Schwartz:
I went to the theater twice.
Larry Bernstein:
Why did you feel necessary to go twice?
Darren Schwartz:
Well, the first time I went I got a text from my friend Lou, who said he wanted to meet a DeNucci’s, which is the restaurant next to the Wayfair theater, which is phenomenal. We have been there. They have real butter. So it was about an hour and 10 minutes in and I figured it's right next door. So, I met him there and we had dinner.
Larry Bernstein:
Are you saying you abandoned the film mid-way through?
Darren Schwartz:
No, I did not abandon the film. I realized that this thing was better if I was able to give the same amount of focus for the first hour and a half to the second half because it was a very long movie. It was the right call.
Larry Bernstein:
So let's get right to that. It's two hours and 40 minutes. That does not include previews, was it too long?
Darren Schwartz:
20 minutes too long at least.
Larry Bernstein:
Now it wants to be fair to the book. Fair to the musical on Broadway. Can they cut 20 minutes? Is that allowed?
Darren Schwartz:
This movie, which is the first half of the play, was as long as the whole play. So yeah, they could have cut a lot.
Larry Bernstein:
I agree. It's incumbent on the director. I mean, I am going to edit this podcast for crying out loud.
Darren Schwartz:
You're going to cut it down to 20 minutes.
Larry Bernstein:
Max.
How could they go for two hours and 40 minutes? It is not fair to the audience.
Darren Schwartz:
I felt that it was indulgent and especially because there is a Part Two. At least four minutes in every scene could have been cut.
Larry Bernstein:
How do you feel about this idea of having multiple parts? Is this similar to Ozark where you've got multiple seasons? Is that where we're headed with everything these days?
Darren Schwartz:
When Star Wars did it, no problem. The original Star Wars four was light and happy to begin with and it went dark, Empire Strikes Back. They are just continuing the story. She is on the broom, she flies away. What happens after that?
Larry Bernstein:
Maybe they do the prequel.
Darren Schwartz:
The prequel on her way to Shiz University?
Larry Bernstein:
Well, maybe we learn more about that traveling salesman that knocked up her mother. Who was he? What was he doing? What motivated him?
Darren Schwartz:
By the way, for two hours and 40 minutes. I would like to know more about that.
Larry Bernstein:
Really?
Darren Schwartz:
Yeah, it's exciting. And it is not just the sexual aspect, but what was their relationship like?
Larry Bernstein:
Yeah. Maybe we just skip part two and go back to minus one.
Darren Schwartz:
Yeah, he's a traveling salesman, but how did he get the job? Was he a manager of a whole division and there was some malfeasance? Dude, you got to go on the road. He's like, fine, I'll take advantage of this.
Larry Bernstein:
All I know is he was drinking a green liquid. Whoa, lo and behold.
Darren Schwartz:
Yeah.
Larry Bernstein:
Now my wife drinks a lot of Diet Coke, but my kids are white.
Darren Schwartz:
That's outrageous. What is the one thing anybody will say about Julie Bernstein? Bubbly personality.
Larry Bernstein:
Maybe got that from the Diet Coke.
Is Wicked worth seeing?
Darren Schwartz:
It is worth seeing. The whole idea that when they came up with the backstory for the Wizard of Oz’s evil characters was great putting the whole narrative on its head.
Larry Bernstein:
We have a mutual friend Scott Turow a golfing buddy of ours, who is the author of Presumed Innocent. He spoke on this podcast a few months ago. He has created a world of Kindle County and he owns those characters under US copyright law, he will continue to have full rights of that decades after he dies. This is limiting on the creative powers of other people who can't create the equivalent of Wicked. They cannot do a movie from the perspective of Rusty's wife, because Scott owns those rights, here, the original author Baum who wrote The Wizard of Oz, long dead, has no copyright. And that allowed the creators of this production to do whatever they wanted with those characters and create something incredibly impressive. How do you feel about Congress's desire to protect artists' rights and limit other artists' ability to create derivative work like this?
Darren Schwartz:
In this age of AI where actors and singers and artists are at risks of being replicated, I totally support it. I think intellectual property rights are critical, and you should be able to maintain that.
Larry Bernstein:
Let's go through some of the characters. The star of the show is the Wicked Witch Elphaba played by Cynthia Erivo. What do you think of her performance?
Darren Schwartz:
It was great. Her whole look, there is an intensity, there is a magnetism and obviously a great voice. She was perfectly cast.
Larry Bernstein:
She had tremendous stage presence. Her physicality, her very presence was inspiring.
Darren Schwartz:
You were able to get a sense of how she was feeling or embarrassed just by her tone or her body language. She just has that star quality.
Larry Bernstein:
Ariana Grande as Galinda.
Darren Schwartz:
Not as great, but she hit the mark in terms of what the character was called for, vacuous, condescending, manipulative. I cannot think of another actress that would've potentially been a better fit. And obviously you should have an amazing singer. I did not feel as strongly about her as I did Cynthia Erivo.
Larry Bernstein:
She was so skinny in the movie in that first scene where we meet her.
Darren Schwartz:
Waifish.
Larry Bernstein:
How do you feel about that decision to make her such a waif?
Darren Schwartz:
Well, do you think that was CGI? She is just thin.
Larry Bernstein:
She is thin but she has big eyes.
Darren Schwartz:
That is who she is. I do not think they are going to bulk her up like Christian Bale who lost 50 pounds for The Machinist.
Larry Bernstein:
I think if she lost 50 pounds, I mean, forget it.
Darren Schwartz:
Her voice is incredible. She did not have that subliminal communication of what she was thinking. But that is probably because she is very superficial. Cynthia Erivo’s portrayal of the depth of her character was much more interesting.
Larry Bernstein:
Jeffrey Goldblum is next.
Darren Schwartz:
He's the same character in every movie.
Larry Bernstein:
Whoa, whoa, whoa, Darren, you are the same character every episode as a movie critic on What Happens Next.
Darren Schwartz:
But I'm not supposed to be different. In this movie, he is playing the guy from the Big Chill. He is hysterical and talented. I will tell you what I would have loved to see, Christopher Walken as Oz would have killed, I think. What do you think?
Larry Bernstein:
If he had said, “We need more cowbell,” I would have lost it.
Darren Schwartz:
Jeff Goldblum could never do cowbell.
Larry Bernstein:
Jeff Goldblum. Of all his films, what is your favorite role and in what film?
Darren Schwartz:
He was a perfect fit for Jurassic Park.
Larry Bernstein:
I agree. Jurassic Park is the answer. Congratulations, Darren.
Darren Schwartz:
Snarky know it all. Guy who shows up and must deal with out-of-control dinosaur stuff.
Larry Bernstein:
The character development for the Wizard was suboptimal. He wasn't that deep. He was just looking to put down Elphaba.
Darren Schwartz:
Very content light. By the way, he was great in apartments.com commercials.
Larry Bernstein:
I once got into dispute with a landlord in a commercial deal, and I think he took advantage of me. I asked for a meeting and my first question to him was, when you think about yourself, which Wizard of Oz character do you feel you are most like? And he said, well, what do you think?
Darren Schwartz:
You said the lion.
Larry Bernstein:
I said, scarecrow. I said, you have no brain. Nope. He goes, it’s the lion. I have no heart.
Darren Schwartz:
What is great about that story, and I have heard a lot of your stories, is the stories that I know are real is when there's a conflict between you and somebody and you say, let's meet because that's your bread and butter, you think if I just get-
Larry Bernstein:
Them in front of me, we can work this out.
Darren Schwartz:
Just get them in front of me. That is my bread and butter, and I can make it happen.
Larry Bernstein:
Didn't happen here.
What was your favorite song? There are two Blockbuster numbers. Ariana Grande singing Popular, and the other is Cynthia Erivo with Defying Gravity. Which do you prefer?
Darren Schwartz:
Because I like the character and the actress better in this, I like Defying Gravity.
Larry Bernstein:
There is no question that they had to leave it on a high, and so Defying Gravity is unbelievable. It's just a wow, what a way to close it. And it is typical of a Broadway show just before intermission. They got to leave it on a high and have people go crazy running for the popcorn and that was spectacular.
Larry Bernstein:
In the first scene of the film, the Wicked Witch is dead, and the munchkins are celebrating, and one of the munchkins asks Galinda, is it true that you were friends with Elphaba the Wicked Witch? And it takes that provocation to tell the story. Why was she so ashamed of that? Were you surprised? Given she had a longstanding and sincere, loving, and supportive relationship with her that she would be coming down in a bubble to announce her death in this manner, and then only if provoked admitted it?
Darren Schwartz:
I was not surprised knowing the story. I felt that tension just because of the vacuous superficiality of Glinda. She certainly wasn't all in on the friendship. I mean, she went into Oz just for her own reasons.
Larry Bernstein:
That's true with most friendships, don't you think?
Darren Schwartz:
I think it's true for us. It was the guilt by association she was trying to avoid.
Larry Bernstein:
I saw Wicked on Broadway with Idina Menzel and Kristan Chenoweth. They killed it. They made cameo appearances here in this film. How do you feel about that decision and were you excited to see them?
Darren Schwartz:
Kristen Chenoweth, it was a great homage to her having been in the Broadway production.
Larry Bernstein:
This concept of bringing back characters in reproductions is not uncommon. I am thinking of Cape Fear specifically.
Darren Schwartz:
You love Cape Fear.
Larry Bernstein:
I do love Cape Fear in the reproduction Gregory Peck and Robert Mitchum, who were the stars in the original production show up in the Robert De Niro’s Cape Fear Production. How do you feel about bringing back old characters and tossing them back?
Darren Schwartz:
I do not know if they are trying to get viewers that saw the old one. They're like, “Hey, this is interesting. They're bringing back the old guy.” I cannot imagine Hollywood has a sense of commitment to people. And to me as a viewer, it doesn't matter one way or the other. In fact, I think it's a little confusing.
Larry Bernstein:
Darren, you are a good dancer.
Darren Schwartz:
I'm more freestyle, but I do like to dance.
Larry Bernstein:
So how did you like the dance numbers here?
Darren Schwartz:
These are incredibly talented people and they put on a show. If the dancing wasn't good, it's not going to fly.
Larry Bernstein
Will it win the Oscar for best costumes?
Darren Schwartz:
I think it gets nominated.
Larry Bernstein:
Does Cynthia win Best Actress?
Darren Schwartz:
Yes. By the way, Michele Yeoh won in 2023. Barbie really got screwed across the board.
Larry Bernstein:
Which was a better film. Barbie or Wicked?
Darren Schwartz:
Barbie.
Larry Bernstein:
Why?
Darren Schwartz:
Ken. Ryan Gosling got nominated and won. Yeah, it is a much better movie. It was more fun. The whole turnaround when he came back to Ken Land.
Larry Bernstein:
The horses.
I am just Ken.
Darren Schwartz:
I would say Ken, a hundred percent. He won last year. He won for Best Sporting Actor, and she did not, Margot Robbie. She was totally robbed.
Larry Bernstein:
If Ariana Grande gets nominated, would she get nominated for best actress or best supporting actress?
Darren Schwartz:
That is a controversy called category fraud. You heard this term?
Larry Bernstein:
No, I don't know it.
Darren Schwartz:
Category fraud is when someone should be nominated for best actress or actor, and they get nominated for supporting because there is a better chance of winning.
Larry Bernstein:
Yes or no. Best supporting actress Ariana?
Darren Schwartz:
They're going to nominate her for best supporting and she will not win.
Larry Bernstein:
Which movie's better, Wicked or The Wizard of Oz?
Darren Schwartz:
The Wiz with Michael Jackson and Diana Ross.
Larry Bernstein:
The question is Wizard of Oz or Wicked.
Darren Schwartz:
The Wizard of Oz.
Larry Bernstein:
It is much better. Judy Garland's performance is one for the ages.
Darren Schwartz:
Has there been a remake of The Wizard of Oz?
Larry Bernstein:
When it is perfect, stop.
Darren Schwartz:
It's being made. It's being written.
Larry Bernstein:
Come on.
Darren Schwartz
Kenya Barris, the creator of Blackish, is writing and directing a remake, the Wizard of Oz for Warner Brothers.
Larry Bernstein:
All right, so we're wrong about that too.
Larry Bernstein:
Darren, you like to sing?
Darren Schwartz:
Yeah.
Larry Bernstein:
If you were going to sing one of the songs in the film, which song would you sing and would you sing it for the show?
Darren Schwartz:
The Jeff Goldblum song, The Sentimental Man not the Dancing Through Life.
Larry Bernstein:
How many more times do you think you could watch Wicked?
Darren Schwartz:
Zero.
Larry Bernstein:
Cocktail is on HBO Tonight. How many minutes would you watch?
Darren Schwartz:
Surprisingly, Cocktail was not my favorite Tom Cruise movie. I could not watch it. But I will tell you what I could watch, and I just watched it because the conversation you had on your recent podcast. I just watched the 2019 version of Midway, and I might watch it again tonight. It is probably one of the most authentic war movies made.
Larry Bernstein:
More authentic than Dr. Strangelove?
Darren Schwartz:
You cannot beat Peter Sellers. The first thing I noticed was the uniforms. I'm like, man, that doesn't fit that guy. And the material looks crappy. I looked it up and that was on purpose. They went to great lengths to make it schluby like they used to be. Eisenhower was not wearing a tight-fitting Dolce Gabbana uniform.
Larry Bernstein:
Judy Garland, if she were alive today, what role would she play in Wicked?
Darren Schwartz:
I don't think there's a place for her. If she had survived and she was 130 years old.
Larry Bernstein:
I saw Hamilton in on Broadway. Seats were difficult to get. I got last row.
Darren Schwartz:
You never sit last row. That's insane.
Larry Bernstein:
Yeah, not happy about it. There was a standing room only and when the first opening number started, the woman standing behind me started to sing. Hey, you do not understand. I paid a fortune. Excuse me.
Darren Schwartz:
Did you get mad?
Larry Bernstein:
No, I don't think it stopped her much. She got right back into it a few minutes later. But it turns out that the production company requested that fans in the theater not sing. How do you feel about audience participation singing along so that the audience cannot hear the production?
Darren Schwartz:
If you are talking Rocky Horror where it is playing at midnight at the Town Center in Southfield, Michigan, and people are there for the 50th time and they throw the toast or the rice. Totally works.
Grease, You're the one that I want. Boom, do it.
Larry Bernstein:
The producers of Wicked changed their public statements regarding singing along during the film and asked theaters to offer special times to allow and encourage singing along with Wicked.
What do you make of that?
Darren Schwartz:
It is amazing that they have that much demand where people who want to go back again and sing. I would never stand for that. I could not be in a theater where other people were singing.
Larry Bernstein:
That said, would you sing along?
Darren Schwartz:
Absolutely.
Larry Bernstein:
Darren, what are you optimistic about as it relates to Wicked Part Two?
Darren Schwartz:
I am interested to see how they portray her transition from flying high above the escaping monkeys to being the witch that everybody cheers for her death. And do the monkeys listen to her or Oz?
Larry Bernstein:
How do you think of her as compared to Hitler in the bunker?
Darren Schwartz:
No One Mourns the Wicked.
Larry Bernstein:
Thanks to Darren for joining us.
If you missed our previous podcast the topic was about Picking an Admiral to Wage War.
Our speaker was Craig Symonds who has been the Maritime History Professor at the US Naval Academy and the author a new book entitled Nimitz at War.
Admiral Chester Nimitz was Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet during World War 2. He made the critical decisions to fight the Japanese carriers at Midway and to pursue America’s atoll hopping strategy to force Japan’s surrender.
Craig discussed what made Nimitz such an incredible leader, and why he excelled in evaluating calculated risk in wartime. Learning during wartime and applying the latest technology to the battlefield is necessary to beat the enemy.
We also talked about ethics in battle, and how America should respond when an enemy like the Japanese refused to surrender and murdered defenseless American POWs.
You can find our previous episodes and transcripts on our website whathappensnextin6minutes.com. Please follow us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Thank you for joining us today, goodbye.
Check out our previous episode, Picking an Admiral to Wage War, here.
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